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The Boy Scout Paradox

The day before the first day of school, Ryan’s school had a meet the teacher event. There was also a Boy Scout information booth set up in the hallway.  As we were leaving, Ryan went right to the booth and started looking at all of the pictures.  The leader started talking to us about the various levels, activities, and when it would start.  

Ryan was intrigued and was very interested in becoming a Boy Scout.  I never participated in Girl Scouts, or even knew that much about the program.  Other than seeing the uniforms around, I wasn’t sure exactly what they did or what their purpose was.  The leader told us the first meeting and information session for new scouts would be in a few weeks, and we signed up to attend the meeting.

The past few weeks I’ve asked friends who are involved in Boy Scouts their opinions.  Everything I heard from them was positive.  I asked my friends on my personal Facebook page, what their experiences with Boy Scouts had been, and again, it was all positive.  There were several adult men who commented they had really enjoyed their time in Boy Scouts and it helped them learn a lot of different skills.  One of my friends also commented there really is no other program out there for boys like it. 

Then the comment came- just about the only thing I had remembered hearing about Boy Scouts, and that is their position towards gay people.  I haven’t read the actual policy word for word, but they prohibit any person who is gay from being a leader or participating in the organization. This has been challenged legally, but since they are a private organization, the policy has been upheld. 

One of my friends told me she would have enrolled her son, who is also in first grade, in Boy Scouts if not for this policy.  She was still thinking about it.  My friend Alison, told me she had friends who participated in Boy Scouts and it really depends on the local group.  Another friend of mine from high school, who has been involved in Boys Scouts for years with his two sons, and who is a leader, confirmed the same thing.  He also said in all his years involved, he had never heard one anti-gay comment, and it had never been an issue.

In our own circle of friends and family, there are gay people.  I teach Ryan and Cole to treat everyone with respect and kindness.  Personally, I disagree with the Boy Scout policy, and think they should change it- the sooner the better.  Ignoring that people are gay, and preventing them to participate in an organization is discrimination.  It seems hateful and very mean spirited.  Most of the information I read said the Boy Scout organization does not ask, or divulge into a person’s sexual orientation.  So it seems like the classic case of ”don’t ask, don’t tell.”   

Because I don’t agree with the Boy Scouts national policy on this issue, is that a good reason to keep my six year old from joining the organization?

The biggest question I had was, would telling Ryan he couldn’t join, change anything on a national level?  Sadly, the answer is no.  I feel in this case, the harm would be greater to Ryan- telling him he couldn’t join- than it would be to the Boy Scouts.  After considering what people have said their experiences have been at a local level, it didn’t seem likely that the anti-gay policy would be an issue at this time, in Ryan’s life.  He’s only six, and doesn’t fully grasp all the issues involved in this situation.   

I also think as a parent, the most important thing I can do is let him live life.  The way he wants to, within boundaries of course.  Ryan might not like Boy Scouts after he is in it for a year and will want to quit.  Or he could love it.  But if I never let him try what he wants to do, he will never know.  If he wants to continue in it, there will be a day for this policy conversation with him.  If he feels he doesn’t want to be part of an organization that bans gay people that will be his decision to make, when he is able to do so.  Not mine.  

Last night was the first meeting and Ryan loved it.  His best friend, who is in his class, showed up as well.  They both were so excited.  They watched the older boys with the flags.  They listened to the leaders speak.  They sang a song, and learned more about some of the activities they would be doing.  Ryan is already excited about archery. He wants to go get his uniform.  Cole also whispered to me when he is in first grade, he wants to be a Boy Scout too.   

The core values the Boys Scouts work hard to install, and the sense of accomplishment they help boys to develop in themselves, seems pretty amazing.  I heard boys a few years older than Ryan speak with pride about their activities. They were well spoken, polite, and confident.  It is puzzling that an organization that can cultivate these values with boys, has an anti-anything policy-especially a sexual orientation policy that can’t be chosen.  

As I heard the boys speaking last night, and I watched my own son, excited and eager, my hope for him is to be confident, have a sense of accomplishment, and develop a strong sense of self.  It’s bizarre the Boy Scouts have developed millions and millions of boys every year, with these strong core values, while maintaining their anti-gay policy.       

If Ryan’s generation can recognize discrimination, work to change and correct it, then the Boy Scouts will have had a hand in this, by the values they help develop.  Ending discrimination should start with the Boy Scout organization.  It’s an ironic paradox.

10 replies on “The Boy Scout Paradox”

Ah, yes. A conversation we’ve had too! It goes beyond just homosexuality as atheists and agnostics are also banned from boy scouts. And girls. There’s that too 🙂 I can’t find the article I read on the topic but it sort of sealed the deal for us.

When I was a kid my brother’s Cubs troop was run out of the local school. There were church-based groups for sure, but boy scouts wasn’t presented as a church-based program. When we looked into it for S we found that all the troops up this way are based out of and meet in churches and is presented as an extension of the church program. I can’t tell if this is just my area, or if boy scouts in general has moved to a religious organization. So for us, who aren’t religious, these were enough red flags for us to pass on boy scouts for now. What S really wants to do is girl scouts because they meet in our club house. we’re not joining them either! 🙂

I like your attitude and agree that it’s up to our kids to be the change in the world 🙂

Nicole,

I did see the policy include atheists and agnostics as well. It’s really too bad. I guess I don’t see that being as “big” of an issue as the gay policy. There is some of the God stuff in Boy Scouts, and I suppose if an agnostic or an atheist had a problem with that, they probably wouldn’t be joining anyway.

We met last night at the town hall, & they said after last night, all the meetings are either at the leader’s house, the park, or at the event site. The monthly meetings are held in the cafeteria of the elementary school.

So, I guess it is up to the local group. I’m surprised your town troop seems more into the religious aspect of it. I would have thought it would have been the other way around. It does seem each troop can really differ, based on the leadership.

I love Girl Scout cookies, so I wish we could sell those. 🙂 Too cute on S. wanting to joining them.

This is a difficult subject! I respect that you’ve put a lot of thought into your decision.

Personally, I think of it this way: what if instead of “homosexuals,” you substituted the term “African-Americans” or “Jews.” I’m assuming, based on your thoughtful and sensitive blogging, that of course you would never even consider letting your child join an organization that excluded Black or Jewish people. So why is it okay when the excluded group is gay people?

Unfortunately, it still seems socially acceptable in the US for people, like those in the BSA leadership, to openly express their discrimination for gays under the guise of “It just goes against my personal beliefs.” A lot of people still believe that being gay is a choice, which adds to the idea that it’s okay to exclude gays as a group.

If you feel like not joining BSA will make more of a difference to your son than the organization, why not send a letter to the BSA leadership explaining your choice not to enroll your son based on their discriminatory practices? After all, you’re right that it won’t make a difference to them unless they know why you made your choice. I think the (slow and arduous) path to ending discrimination really depends on allies like you to stand up for marginalized groups when you have the chance.

Kristen,

Thanks for your comment. I thought about this angle, but just didn’t write about it in order to keep the blog post from becoming too long. 😉

I agree it is a gray line, but the deciding factor for me was the local groups. Of course if I start hearing gay bashing at local meetings we will quit. But after talking to so many parents, former scouts, my friends involved with the BSA, they all said the same thing: It is what is happening at the local level that matters and affects the boys.

I live in a pretty “liberal” area. There are only about 3,000 people who live in my entire town. I am willing to bet that at least one person involved in the local chapter of the scouts has a gay friend or relative. Even though the parent organization has a ban on gay people, I find it really hard to believe that it will even be an issue at the smaller local level.

I do plan on contacting the national organization and expressing my thoughts on this policy. But if I withhold Ryan, don’t let him participate, write my letter that is it. In reality, my lone letter won’t make a big enough impact, and my son suffers.

I also think in the end, it is up to us individually. On the flip side of the coin, the BSA could repel the ban on gay people, but if the local leaders are gay bashers, it doesn’t really matter what the national policy is. They can’t be at every meeting, in every town, every time. So at the local level if the leaders are kind, compassionate, and don’t teach hate, that is acceptable to me for now. I can’t police every national policy I don’t agree with. Like I said in the post, I feel my responsibility right now is to Ryan and letting him explore his interests when I can.

It is really a difficult decision. In the end, I have a good feeling about the local group here, and the experience Ryan will gain from it.

If there is one thing I have learned in all of my 6.5 years of parenting 😉 is to trust your instincts. They are seldom wrong when it comes to your children. In cases like this, when it can be a slippery slope, you have to trust the decisions you make as a parent.

They’ve drawn a line in the sand as to what they deem acceptable or not. Your line is at a different place than theirs. I understand replacing gays with Jews or Blacks but you could also go the other way and say they must include Sex Offenders or people with serious drug issues.

I just landed here after your guest post at Crunchy Domestic Goddess.

Cub & Boy Scouts was a big issue for me. I refused to let my son join in first grade and made the mistake of saying, “my child will NEVER be a part of THAT organization.” I gave 3 years ago when he and his father insisted in second grade. I still have great reservations about the national policies, but I have to say that scouting has been a huge gift for our whole family, especially my son, who has learning disabilities and difficulty with friends.

I think that the best course in this case is to make sure we teach our values at home and as a family work to make changes from within the organization. I’m amazed when I bring it up among other parents in our group by just how many people share our concerns – I do have great hope that one day BSA will wake up to reality and be more accepting because I do hate myself just a little bit for being associated with it.

Wow! A lot of really good discussion, and very positive ideas on this board.

I was a Boy Scout and a Scoutmaster, and have two Eagle Scouts, and a daughter about to join the Boy Scout’s Venturing program, so I’ll try to answer some of the questions raised here. These are MY answers though, not BSA’s official answers.

Boy Scouting is a leadership training program that uses the outdoors as a matrix to create challenges that reward youth for their accomplishments. It is open to boys from ages 12-18, and has a co-ed component, venturing, which is open to boys and girls from 14-21. Cub Scouts is another program within Boy Scouts for boys age 6-12. My daughter turns fourteen this summer, and can’t wait to get started as a Venture scout!

The challenge for the Boy Scouts is to create a safe environment. One of the main objectives BSA promotes is protecting youth from physical hazards while rock-climbing, learning archery, building campfires, and all the other activities we do. There are very stringent leader requirements, including background checks, and every adult leader must go through the Boy Scout’s Child Protection Training, and two-deep leadership is very strictly enforced.

Due to the nature of Scouting events (overnight campouts, extended trips) extra precautions are taken to ensure children’s safety, and the BSA feels one way to do this is to exclude homosexuals from leadership positions. This is similar to the requirement that leadership in co-ed Venture crews must have at least one male leader and one female leader present at all events.

I know that is probably not what you wanted to hear, but that is the way things are run. I don’t see that policy changing any time soon. There would probably be mass departure from Boy Scouts if homosexuals were allowed as adult leaders.

None of my gay friends have children, so this is not a topic I have ever discussed with them.

One topic I have discussed, though (with my agnostic friends), is the exclusion of agnostics from Boy Scouts. Part of the Boy Scout experience is a religious component. Our troop has Scouts that are Baptist, B’Hai, Catholic, Hindu, Presbyterian, and on and on. BSA publishes non-sectarian guides to providing meaningful worship experiences, and also awards individual Scouts for accomplishment in their own faith.

I do know people who are agnostic that are active participants in Boy Scouts– one of our Troop Committe Members is agnostic, as a matter of fact. His contributions are welcomed just like anyone else’s, and his sons’ achievements are duly recognized. However, part of the Scout Oath reads, “On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country….” One of the first steps of Scouting is to recite the pledge from memory and tell what the individual parts mean to you. For a Scout of any faith, this serves as a way to further strengthen and reinforce their beliefs. This could be hard for an agnostic parent, however, to see their child professing belief in something they disagree with.

The Boy Scout’s adherence to a policy affirming individual faith is also what has removed all Scout Troops from public schools. Almost all Troops used to be sponsored by schools, but the courts determined that Scouting’s teachings on faith amounted to state-sponsored-religion when allowed on school grounds, and so we all got the boot. A lot of churches, VFA halls, and civic organizations picked up the responsibility, though, so Scouting still has a strong following.

I hope that helps. Scouting is a great program that makes confident young men and women, and I hope you all are able to enjoy it!

I really wish people would talk to the local unit leaders about these questions rather than look them up and let rumor mills continue. So let me explain these policies to the best of my ability.

Homosexuals in Scouting – Adult leaders are not allowed to be homosexual due to scout oath of being “Morally straight” not the heterosexual straight but to uphold good solid morals and values, while I may not agree with this the line has to be drawn somewhere and I am sure as homosexuality is more accepted this will change. A scout youth is allowed to be a homosexual by scout guidelines. The fear of homosexual leaders may be one of a leader preying on boys, I’m not saying that a gay man preys on young boys but these decisions are made far from a home troop or pack and are rarely issues at the city level unless made to be so.

The comment of an agnostic or athiest not being aloud to join is partly incorrect as well. The Scout Oath states a “duty to God” and the final point in the Scout Law is Reverent. It does not say reverent to what. Boys have been accepted and passed on Eagle boards of review stating that they believe in Humanity as a higher power or a belief in a higher power but unable to define what that power is.
At the Cub Scout level religious teachings are supposed to be done by the parents only. In Boy Scouts the point of Reverence gets a bit more involved in some Troops than others.
In closing finding an organization that makes everyone completely satisfied is impossible. If the only thing people complain about are these two things, and they are often the stones that are chosen to be thrown at our organization, then we must be doing a pretty good job. In over a 100 years we have changed slightly so out Founder was well ahead of his time.

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